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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
168
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Posted - 2014.01.13 13:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:CCP Remnant wrote:hgghyujh wrote:im okay with it, how ever I would like to see other light frame variants for hacking, assassination and battlefield intel.
that said current iterations need two equipment slots more then ever and the pg/cpu buff to go with it. Done and done. Though, you're gonna be losing a sidearm slot. (Also, I think people are gonna faint when they see the PG/CPU costs of cloak fields; Scouts'll be alright though) Wat?.....you're joking right? Please, be joking. We had a scout back in chromosome that got + 1 equipment and lost the sidearm this suit was quite popular among scouts.. We Scouts had alot of things back in Chrome. * substantially faster * harder to hit * had stamina and jumps for days * had better slot configs * had a decent shotgun * had substantially better scan stats Today's Dust and today's Scout are nothing like those of Chromosome. With respect, tyou're comparing Apples and Oranges.
Also, we didn't have the Minmatar back in Chrom. The Gallente can get by without a sidearm without sacrificing much, but the Minmatar has a racial bonus to the most situational sidearm there is, meaning it has to sacrifice a primary to take advantage of it. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
169
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Posted - 2014.01.14 07:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Last time I checked, you can still fit a Nova Knife on the light-slot even though you lose a sidearm slot. Hell, you can still fit any sidearm into the light slot for that matter. You just aren't able to fit a light weapon like the AR into the sidearm slot. I have been keeping tabs with the patch notes and so far CCP hasn't changed that.
With CCP Remnant's suggestion, you'll just have to decide whether to go with light weapon only or sidearm only but at least you get two equipment slots for the scout.
Wow...I can run a NK as a primary with no sidearm...yay...
I totally didn't see that as a possibility  . I know you have a history of forcing UP fits just because you are determined to use them, but some of us actually want to be objectively viable and versatile in high level play. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
169
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 08:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Last time I checked, you can still fit a Nova Knife on the light-slot even though you lose a sidearm slot. Hell, you can still fit any sidearm into the light slot for that matter. You just aren't able to fit a light weapon like the AR into the sidearm slot. I have been keeping tabs with the patch notes and so far CCP hasn't changed that.
With CCP Remnant's suggestion, you'll just have to decide whether to go with light weapon only or sidearm only but at least you get two equipment slots for the scout. Wow...I can run a NK as a primary with no sidearm...yay... I totally didn't see that as a possibility . I know you have a history of forcing UP fits just because you are determined to use them, but some of us actually want to be objectively viable and versatile in high level play. The only reason NKs aren't completely viable is because they lack the ability to sprint with the charge held. 
Regardless of how viable any particular sidarm is/isn't, the issue isn't what you can/can't put in the weapon slot, it's the resulting loss of versatility.
Imagine this situation, one that is incredibly likely and often unavoidable.
Two assault players are standing next to each other, they hear a decloak and a shotgun blast. The second blast finishes the first assault as he warns the 2nd it is a Gal Scout. Instead of attempting to immediately fight back, he started running after hearing the first shot, knowing that the adversary is much less effective at >5m and has no other means of attack. He then turns and collects his guaranteed kill as the scout turns to run after finishing the first adversary. Meaning sneaking up on just two adversaries cloaked with a shotgun would still leave the scout at a disadvantage.
If the scout had a possibility of a sidearm, turning and running may have been suicide for the assault, as an SMG or ScP would have made quick work of him. The assault would have had to choose whether to run and predict the absence of a sidearm, or immediately fight back and rely on his skill and gun game. Giving the scout a sidearm makes the situation much more dynamic and rewarding of both intelligent and skillful play by both parties, which results in a much healthier and much more enjoyable game. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
170
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 08:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Last time I checked, you can still fit a Nova Knife on the light-slot even though you lose a sidearm slot. Hell, you can still fit any sidearm into the light slot for that matter. You just aren't able to fit a light weapon like the AR into the sidearm slot. I have been keeping tabs with the patch notes and so far CCP hasn't changed that.
With CCP Remnant's suggestion, you'll just have to decide whether to go with light weapon only or sidearm only but at least you get two equipment slots for the scout. Wow...I can run a NK as a primary with no sidearm...yay... I totally didn't see that as a possibility . I know you have a history of forcing UP fits just because you are determined to use them, but some of us actually want to be objectively viable and versatile in high level play. The only reason NKs aren't completely viable is because they lack the ability to sprint with the charge held. Regardless of how viable any particular sidarm is/isn't, the issue isn't what you can/can't put in the weapon slot, it's the resulting loss of versatility. Imagine this situation, one that is incredibly likely and often unavoidable. Two assault players are standing next to each other, they hear a decloak and a shotgun blast. The second blast finishes the first assault as he warns the 2nd it is a Gal Scout. Instead of attempting to immediately fight back, he started running after hearing the first shot, knowing that the adversary is much less effective at >5m and has no other means of attack. He then turns and collects his guaranteed kill as the scout turns to run after finishing the first adversary. Meaning sneaking up on just two adversaries cloaked with a shotgun would still leave the scout at a disadvantage. If the scout had a possibility of a sidearm, turning and running may have been suicide for the assault, as an SMG or ScP would have made quick work of him. The assault would have had to choose whether to run and predict the absence of a sidearm, or immediately fight back and rely on his skill and gun game. Giving the scout a sidearm makes the situation much more dynamic and rewarding of both intelligent and skillful play by both parties, which results in a much healthier and much more enjoyable game. So what your saying is you should be able to take on 2 assaults and win even though it was you that made the first wrong decision of attacking the 2 assaults standing next to each other? Stealth and cloak will allow the scout to choose when and who to attack and let's not forget you still have grenade slot and or re's.
I'm saying that a shotgun scout sneaking up cloaked on two assaults standing near each other, should have a decent chance of killing both.
Not guaranteed, and assuming all shots by the scout hit their mark perfectly with no mistakes. If the scout screws up, or the assaults play the situation properly, then the scout is as good as dead. If the scout is guaranteed not to have a sidearm, then he is almost guaranteed to die in such a situation, regardless of his own skill.
I want to see a Dust where there is high versatility in all fittings and only the most dire situations are a guaranteed loss. It promotes a game where the best player wins, in terms of both fps skill and fitting knowledge. Keeping the scout's sidearm is the best way to promote that ideal.
EDIT: REs are not viable in this situation, as the scout would have to decloak (making a noise), plant the RE (making another obvious noise), then back up and wait for it to arm, getting killed long before this is all complete. Grenades would result in the same situation, except having to stand and cook the grenade rather than waiting for arming time. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
170
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 09:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Imagine this situation, one that is incredibly likely and often unavoidable.
Two assault players are standing next to each other, they hear a decloak and a shotgun blast. The second blast finishes the first assault as he warns the 2nd it is a Gal Scout. Instead of attempting to immediately fight back, he started running after hearing the first shot, knowing that the adversary is much less effective at >5m and has no other means of attack. He then turns and collects his guaranteed kill as the scout turns to run after finishing the first adversary. Meaning sneaking up on just two adversaries cloaked with a shotgun would still leave the scout at a disadvantage.
If the scout had a possibility of a sidearm, turning and running may have been suicide for the assault, as an SMG or ScP would have made quick work of him. The assault would have had to choose whether to run and predict the absence of a sidearm, or immediately fight back and rely on his skill and gun game. Giving the scout a sidearm makes the situation much more dynamic and rewarding of both intelligent and skillful play by both parties, which results in a much healthier and much more enjoyable game. And here's how the Scout avoids this problem. Two Assault players are standing next to each other. They hear a Shotgun blast, and one is dead already because the Scout aimed high. The other turns towards his partner as he falls, seeing the Scout already turning to take a shot at him. By the time he can think to back up, he's taken a hit, and his suit is heavily damaged. Because he's facing the Scout, any attempt to backpedal can be matched by the Scout, so the second shot finishes the job. The sound of multiple Shotgun blasts, and the sight of 2 dead teammates on the kill feed has drawn reinforcements towards the Scout, but as they approach, they hear a different sound. By the time they show up, there's no trace of the killer.
That's assuming a shotgun headshot will ohk an assault, which at the current time isn't always the case. If we're assuming all Proto on both sides, it often isn't the case, as it is nearly impossible to get a FULL headshot with the shotgun.
Since we can only consider what we currently know/have, then your proposed situation isn't necessarily viable, as Proto vs Proto means the shotgun would be 2HK or 3HK at best. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
172
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 10:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Imagine this situation, one that is incredibly likely and often unavoidable.
Two assault players are standing next to each other, they hear a decloak and a shotgun blast. The second blast finishes the first assault as he warns the 2nd it is a Gal Scout. Instead of attempting to immediately fight back, he started running after hearing the first shot, knowing that the adversary is much less effective at >5m and has no other means of attack. He then turns and collects his guaranteed kill as the scout turns to run after finishing the first adversary. Meaning sneaking up on just two adversaries cloaked with a shotgun would still leave the scout at a disadvantage.
If the scout had a possibility of a sidearm, turning and running may have been suicide for the assault, as an SMG or ScP would have made quick work of him. The assault would have had to choose whether to run and predict the absence of a sidearm, or immediately fight back and rely on his skill and gun game. Giving the scout a sidearm makes the situation much more dynamic and rewarding of both intelligent and skillful play by both parties, which results in a much healthier and much more enjoyable game. And here's how the Scout avoids this problem. Two Assault players are standing next to each other. They hear a Shotgun blast, and one is dead already because the Scout aimed high. The other turns towards his partner as he falls, seeing the Scout already turning to take a shot at him. By the time he can think to back up, he's taken a hit, and his suit is heavily damaged. Because he's facing the Scout, any attempt to backpedal can be matched by the Scout, so the second shot finishes the job. The sound of multiple Shotgun blasts, and the sight of 2 dead teammates on the kill feed has drawn reinforcements towards the Scout, but as they approach, they hear a different sound. By the time they show up, there's no trace of the killer. That's assuming a shotgun headshot will ohk an assault, which at the current time isn't always the case. If we're assuming all Proto on both sides, it often isn't the case, as it is nearly impossible to get a FULL headshot with the shotgun. Since we can only consider what we currently know/have, then your proposed situation isn't necessarily viable, as Proto vs Proto means the shotgun would be 2HK or 3HK at best. I can OHK protosuits semi-regularly using a Militia Shotgun with no damage mods. If I don't OHK, either I missed (unlikely when hitting with the element of surprise on my side) or they're so close to death that I can go for the melee kill before turning to shoot the other guy. When I bring a real Shotgun or my Militia fit with damage mods, only Heavies and supertank Logis take more than one hit.
Assuming the average well fit proto has ~800 HP, then they weren't at full HP or weren't tanked properly. A militia shotgun cannot do 800HP of damage in a single headshot, not even to 100% shields, which in itself isn't possible. The proto shotgun has a bit more potential for an OHK, but it would still NEED a full headshot to do about 870HP of damage and would not OHK an armor tanked or dual tanked suit.
In case you were going to try to argue it, it is entirely reasonable to say the average PRO med frame has 800eHP. I know that a minmatar assault with 3 complex SEs and 2 enh APs has approximately 810eHP (about 1:1 for S:A). Considering it has the lowest base HP, and that all other assaults usually fit either the same or more in modules, 800 is a fair and even conservative average. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
177
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 18:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Assuming the average well fit proto has ~800 HP, then they weren't at full HP or weren't tanked properly. A militia shotgun cannot do 800HP of damage in a single headshot, not even to 100% shields, which in itself isn't possible. The proto shotgun has a bit more potential for an OHK, but it would still NEED a full headshot to do about 870HP of damage and would not OHK an armor tanked or dual tanked suit.
In case you were going to try to argue it, it is entirely reasonable to say the average PRO med frame has 800eHP. I know that a minmatar assault with 3 complex SEs and 2 enh APs has approximately 810eHP (about 1:1 for S:A). Considering it has the lowest base HP, and that all other assaults usually fit either the same or more in modules, 800 is a fair and even conservative average. Assuming every protosuit uses all their slots for tanking isn't what I'd call "conservative" personally. Even "fair" is quite a stretch. Also, assuming enough protosuits are well fit to use that as an average is beyond ridiculous. Even assuming the majority of protosuits have full proto fits is questionable.
Using 3H/2L isn't "all their slots" for any proto med dropsuit. Do you even have proto assault suits? The Minmatar has the least potential for total eHP, yet it can surpass 800HP while still fitting two DMs. Because the Minmatar Assault has the lowest base HP of all assaults, and it has the least lows, that means it is easily possible for all other proto assaults to surpass 800HP without going full tank. I can post fittings for all four suits proving this if you want, but it's pretty obvious as it is.
Why would anyone who isn't an idiot run a proto dropsuit that isn't fit in all proto gear? You're better off running an ADV suit if you don't have all the modules and equipment you need for a proto fit. There's no point in discussing it if we have to assume the suits in question are fitted with some random hodgepodge of Myofibril Stimulants and Codebreakers. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
179
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 18:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Well, if we're going to lose a side arm but gaining an extra equipment slot, wouldn't that mean our CPU/PG should get buffed? Surely more equipment would require more CPU and PG, right? It would make sense if we get buff to that as well if we're going this route.
@Flutter Sh... err... Shutter Fly
I can see what you mean that if you are cloaked then you already setup the advantage and should have a greater likelihood of killing both targets if none of them knew you were there due to the cloak. The loss in the ability to have two optimal ranges could also be a factor.
In this case, perhaps a movement and sprint speed buff would be in order since scouts should be inherently faster to begin with. Unlike medium and heavy frames, we don't have that much stuff carrying around. Would you be ok with losing the sidearm slot if it meant being given a sufficient speed buff? If so, what would be the minimum buff you expect? If not, what other compensation would you work with?
EDIT: or would you rather not lose the sidearm slot at all?
Personally, I don't really want a speed buff, just stamina (50-75% preferably). The Minmatar could probably use a bit more speed as an addition to its increased melee damage. Although, that is just my personal preference, as I run a Gal Scout and rarely rely on speed tanking over other means of survival.
As I've said, I don't think the scout should lose a sidarm or a grenade. I don't really see the need for any kind of compromise here. Logis can complain, assaults can complain, I don't really care about people whining if they are wrong. I don't really give two ****s about what the forum thinks as long as the game is properly balanced and engaging. They can argue and complain all they want, that is no concern of mine, and if you care about this game or CCP cares about this game then I suggest you adopt the same attitude. |
Shutter Fly
molon labe.
Public Disorder.
179
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 19:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jotun Izalaru wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:They can argue and complain all they want, that is no concern of mine, and if you care about this game or CCP cares about this game then I suggest you adopt the same attitude. nononono don't ever tell CCP to ignore community feedback they don't know what they're doing
Neither does the vocal majority of the forum community it seems, so...
I guess we're screwed  |
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